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Calladen Nimitz
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Posted - 2003.10.16 17:40:00 -
[1]
My hope is still for peace. To be honest though the past behavior of these three corporations makes it clear they'll never honor any agreement made by Sarkos. Sarkos needs to understand the Curse Alliance HAD peace with CFS until their pirate members invaded CFS space over and over again. Repeatedly playing dumb, saying they "didn't know" despite obvious evidence they did, saying they were "neutral". It isn't even a decent "lie".
It wasn't CFS going into CA territory time and time again and having "accidents". It was CA coming here. All they had to do was stay out.
Then again you can't provoke a war if you do that......
By the way its good to see you again Morkt. I'm glad you didn't leave.
Calladen Nimitz 
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Calladen Nimitz
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Posted - 2003.10.16 17:40:00 -
[2]
Morkt,
You doubt Teisters word for whatever reason. As a former editor yourself you know the purpose of the media is to build up tension and in some ways create news to cover. We see this in real life as well with sensational journalism. I've seen no facts to justify doubting his word merely assumptions on character and innuendo. Teister has posted pure FACT here backed up by these chatlogs (man what a read  ).
You've posted on more then one occasion that you respect my word. You've viewed me as an "honest" person especially since I left my old company when it strayed from the "right" course and went on my own. My desire for peace as you know is probably second to none.
I've sat in the CFS Senate and talked with these people. You'll see my name interjected occasionally in the chatlogs with Wolverine and others. I'm an active participant in the CFS.
CFS has always had NO PIRATES ALLOWED as part of its charter. It isn't arrogant or self-centered its an honest desire to keep an area of space free from these PK types so people (like myself) can enjoy the game in relative security.
I guess I only have one question for you Morkt and everyone else. If you've read the logs do you think anywhere in there is ANYTHING we did to provoke a war? If so please point it out. I'm asking this because a couple of facts aren't in dispute.
1) CA seemed to have no internal communications network as everyone said "I didn't know" they weren't supposed to be here.
2) CA's known pirate corps continued to come into CFS space over and over again despite knowning they were KOS and not welcome.
3) Shinra, a corp we had viewed as honorable came in one morning and went crazy. This despite clear evidence from Luke that he was never attacked in CFS space. (We're still waiting on that evemail screenshot).
4) Sarkos seem to have little control over the pirate element in CA.
5) CA lied to us about a fake "agreement" to sneak out of CFS space by convincing Edward that Teister had agreed to the removal.
6) The one ship that was destroyed and reimbursed for wasn't even killed by a CFS member but someone accompanying our pirate patrol. Likewise strangely all those expensive mods (on a Merlin?) were "vaporized" and no loot at all was recovered.
Now I honestly believe most of CA are good honest corps just trying to make a living. The fact that most of Curse is empty every night (from looking at the pilots in space map you can see this) its obvious they're operating in empire space in a peaceful manner. This seems to indicate its only three pirate corps causing all of CA's misery. Sinister, Red Corsairs and now Shinra (who were not considered pirates until they went crazy).
So I guess I'm wondering. You've said before you respect me as a man of my word who values peace above all else. My word is this - CFS didn't want this war. We were working on a way to allow former pirate corps to enter CFS space on a probationary merit system to "prove" they had reformed. CFS gave CA every chance to remove the CA pirate corps from Khanid and FIX. CFS did everything it could.
Yet CA kept coming back.
You said it was only a few 100K isk. If that was it I'd have paid it myself. The problem is that would never be "it" because they KEPT COMING BACK HERE over and over. It also isn't doable because THEY NEVER SHOULDVE BEEN HERE in the first place.
It's like a kid teasing a dog on a leash over and over until one day he gets to close and the dog actually bites him. Then the dogs at fault?
I guess I never understood what part of PIRATES ARE NOT WELCOME IN CFS PROTECTED SPACE Sarkos couldn't understand. I honestly believe Sarkos is a decent chap but I also believe he's being lied to by his pirate members. Being a CA executive he has go with what his crew says. Come to think of it I believe fully that Sarkos DOES understand our no-pirate policy and he did want to work with us to ensure peace. I believe though is pirate corp members had other plans regardless of his wishes.
Has ANY alliance in Eve survived with both honest and pirate members? No. Even the CA broke up into CA/CC because of this. Venal broke into pieces as well. It's clear honest business at best has a tenuous relationship with pirate corps. Its also clear these same pirate corps will go out of their way to provoke a conflict despite the wishes of the peaceful. Just look at CC for proof of that.I would hope the remaining honest CA corps go to CC so they can be left out of what is about to become a very messy war.
(continued)
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Calladen Nimitz
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Posted - 2003.10.16 17:42:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Calladen Nimitz on 16/10/2003 17:56:28
"This is partly why I am so mystified at the CFS's need to seek justification in fighting "pirates"... unless you yourselves aren't sure of the later of course."
Morkt,
This entire thread isn't justification at all. Its fact that should eliminate all the false accusations made by the CA. They've repeatedly claimed over and over WE started this war. Read the timeline objectively and decide for yourself - who really started this?
All we asked is they keep the pirate members out of CFS space until the Senate ratified the policy for allowing former pirates access (we were working on it). Instead they kept coming back.
We're not justifying anything. We don't have to the evidence is clear.
"This is one of my issues with the CFS stance. Either we judge CA on the same level as the CFS or we absolve the CA from any guilt as they "are pirates after all"."
If CA behaved like respectable alliances we would judge them like that. How would you view these continual incurssions and "accidents" if not pure provocation? Saying they "didn't know" isn't even a good excuse when you've heard it a hundred times.
I will ask this though. If we view CA as pirates and absolve them of guilt don't you feel an alliance with a NO PIRATES charter is justified in keeping them out? Do you believe the fight against piracy is noble?
I remember all your posts about TTi and piracy. Because I agreed with the position it isn't "right" I left there. Here now we have more piracy. I would hope you'd show the same vigor in attacking THESE pirate allys you've shown in the past.
Calladen Nimitz
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Calladen Nimitz
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Posted - 2003.10.16 17:48:00 -
[4]
"I ask again, why are you at war? Not how did you come to be at war."
We are at this situation to preserve our way of life. Our homeland has been repeatedly invaded by forces hostile to all in our territory.
The alternative is to allow them to continually come here and do as they will, pirating and PKing the innocent and running wild throughout protected space without penalty.
The CFS was founded to provide a peaceful place honest spacetravellers could operate in relative security.
By invading Khanid and FIX the pirate corporations of CA have declared war on us and our way of life. Protecting ones home is the most honorable thing a man (or woman) can do for their nation. We are doing that here.
Note we STILL haven't gone into Curse or attacked anyone else. This despite the fact the CA pirate corps operating here have repeatedly attacked non-CFS shipping and continue to do so. Perhaps they need to explain what the difference is between that and piracy.
If CA pirate corps left today and STAYED OUT until these thing were settled diplomatically we'd have a start. But its clear from their past actions they have no intention of actually staying out.
THAT is what led us here and is why we are here now. The reality is by repeatedly invading and attacking us CA pirate corps can now say they are "fighting a war" and try to bring some legitimacy to what before this was just plain old PK piracy.
Calladen Nimitz 
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Calladen Nimitz
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Posted - 2003.10.16 18:03:00 -
[5]
Morkt,
I firmly support (and indeed contributed) to a preliminary CFS discussion on the process a former pirate corp would need to complete to regain "credible" status in the eyes of CFS.
I believe people who play as pirates may some day want to reform. I'll point to M3G4 as an example (I haven't heard anything about the "new" M3G4 pirating at all). I believe everyone should have the opportunity at a second chance and the ability to restore their name.
I'm a perfect example of that. I myself was part of the most hated company in Eve. Yet because I've been given a second chance I've been allowed to redefine myself (not really redefine but better express).
I still have hopes for peace. I'm not one of the ones saying "pirates never change" and I'm sorry if it came across that way. What I'm saying is pirates need to SHOW change. In this case it hasn't really been shown. To be honest it was sort of by Sinister. I don't recall hearing any complaints of them acting out in CFS space (piracy). While the incursions were a problem at least they seemed to behave themselves.
I would still hope peace can take hold and this resolves itself (I'll probably get slammed in the Senate for this) in a way that allows the honest CA corporations to once again NOT be KOS with us. I'd also hope down the road former pirate corps can restore their name and start anew.
Perhaps I'm idealistic. But in a perfect world these things would happen. We have the opportunity to make Eve "the perfect world". Whats wrong with trying?
Calladen Nimitz
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Calladen Nimitz
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Posted - 2003.10.16 18:11:00 -
[6]
I view EG as a decent news source. People can't forget the media has to write about something.
In some ways this reminds me of the James Bond movie "Tomorrow Never Dies". In the beginning the bad guy (Elliot Carver - media mogul) is creating havoc and comments "Theres no news..... like bad news".
I don't fault the media for reporting the truth. I am concerned at times about slants a story takes but we have to remember not to take it personally. For example, that story an anonymous CA CEO wrote appeared to "raise questions". I would hope those questions would be answered.
Another EG story about claims by CA to have destroyed 30 CFS ships (was about 3 CFS and 27 non-cfs ships in our space I think) was highlighted by the reference "extraordinary" thus bringing some question to CA credibility.
In a true democratic society the media is free. While a reporters personal opinion will shine thru somewhat (don't believe this - read the New York Times) facts are facts. Thats what Teister has posted here with this God-awful read of endless chatlogs.
I would hope the EG would read the entire timeline and report what happend. I would expect no less from an honest newsource.
Calladen Nimitz
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Calladen Nimitz
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Posted - 2003.10.16 19:36:00 -
[7]
Valkyrium,
Zaprobo from BSC is correct. EG does "ongoing" news. Who knows what they'll print tomorrow.
I find alot of comparisons to real life here. Like real politics you either "love it or hate it". Finding a common ground is often very difficult.
Lets see what develops as Zaprobo said.
Calladen
(PS - Zaprobo - if you could send me an evemail and clarify what you meant by "suggestions". I didn't see them and was wondering what I'd missed - thanks)
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Calladen Nimitz
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Posted - 2003.10.17 00:18:00 -
[8]
Asimir,
"It just saddens me that now any act of retribution or self-defence can be spun off into a pirate action as long as a member of the CA is involved. Have it your way. We will see if the added weight of the CFS can acomplish what the SA/FA/CC could not. Keep the clones on standby."
Have you read all the chatlogs here? What do you think? Do you see all was needed was for the CA pirate corps to stay out of CFS space?
There was no question about our charter. Pirates are KOS here. Period. What part of PIRATES DONT BELONG HERE don't you comprehend?
Read the logs, look at the timeline, they had DAYS to leave our space yet kept coming back. Why? Why didn't they just stay away? Look at Lallantes attitude and what she said "oh I'm neutral" like thats supposed to remove her from a KOS list. Its absured.
What do you call that if not provocation? Then when shots are fired and both sides claim the other did it who do you trust? The residents with a history of patience and respect for honest trade or a former pirate corp that isn't supposed to be there in the first place?
What possible excuse do you have for these continual incursions into our space DESPITE all the best efforts of Sarkos and crew? After all the agreements, the cooldown period and everything else they kept "appearing" in our space.
As for the Shinra indy incident I noticed a post here where Luke said he WAS NEVER ATTACKED! In the chatlogs its right there. Where is the evidence? The evemail about it and who was responsible. Again nothing but silence and more disinformation.
Its obvious you wanted a war from your own members post about being "bored" in another thread. Don't act so shocked when your called on it.
Calladen Nimitz 
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Calladen Nimitz
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Posted - 2003.10.17 04:11:00 -
[9]
Asimir,
"I'll say it again; I'm not going to debate what happened with you. It's obvious you have your minds set on war, so get to fighting."
You didnt answer a simple question. Do you see anyway this couldve been avoided by CFS? Or do you acknowledge after reading all the evidence these corps repeatedly came in here after being told not to? If not provocation then what was it?
Actually three questions but they're simple. Not even a debate just answer them.
Calladen Nimitz
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Calladen Nimitz
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Posted - 2003.10.17 05:27:00 -
[10]
"To be honest, I have not read the logs posted here in their entirety. I see no reason to. Were our alliances still in a state of negotiations I may try and find a way to make you see our side of things, but that is not the case. "
Then I would ask you read the logs and summary in its entirety and ask yourself who really is to blame here.
We didn't invade anyone. All we did was attempt to ensure this section of space remained safe. Thru it all the incursions continued despite agreements they would stop.
Read the entire thing then ask yourself if your leadership was doing it all could do to stop a war from happening. In my case I can say YES I have read it all and YES from the evidence shown I know they did what they could to stop this from happening.
Who invaded who? Thats the answer.
Calladen Nimitz
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Calladen Nimitz
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Posted - 2003.10.17 16:41:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Calladen Nimitz on 17/10/2003 16:44:43
"A war needs fuel, and if it goes out of fuel, it can stop too. The fuel for CFS is CA entering Fix. If CA stays out, i think they'll find it easy to negociate a cease fire (though i don't see CA being admited again in CFS space for a while). And if pirate corps really give good signs of redemption (saying hey, i am not a pirate anymore, stop shooting ain't a good sign of redemption), they might be allowed in CFS space again."
In this case your exactly correct. Countless times they were told to stay away yet kept coming back. In fact after Sarkos declared war on us I noticed they appeared IN FIX which means they were already there (thus they never left AGAIN when they were told to).
Can anyone see a pattern here? Basically its three corps coming here and attacking. Then when we attack them for doing so or not leaving per agreement WE'RE the "bad ones". Then "he said/they said" shot first. In my case I'll trust the corp that protects the region and not the one that isn't supposed to be here in the first place.
I also find it amazing that CA is the ONLY ALLIANCE to have a problem here. SA/FA/CC/NVA all have come here and had no problems. They are peaceful alliances which respect our requests to keep Khanid free. Yet the CA pirates kept coming back and having "incidents" which they always blamed on us. Very strange indeed.
I would even venture to say eventually the CA companies that are not piratical would be invited back to CFS space. We have no problem with honest companies (which appear to be a majority of CA companies). You CA members need to decide if endless war is worth having these pirate corps in your midst. If you really want peace you need to keep them out. End of discussion.
The really sad thing here is we were working on a way for pirates to "redeem" themselves and remove themselves from the KOS list. It involved something like this:
1) Make a public declaration they are renouncing piracy and will cease all pirate activities.
2) Change the company name.
3) At this time they would be granted a "passage" right thru Khanid (only) for 2-3 weeks.
4) If no incidents of piracy or instigated violence are reported in CFS space about the new corp or in any other system by the new corp they would be granted "peaceful" status and allowed access to all CFS areas.
(Rough draft)
You see we really want to give people a second chance. I guess what I don't understand is this. When the negotiations first started with CA the big concern was THEY WANTED TO BE ABLE TO TRAVEL THRU KHANID TO ATTACK FOUNTAIN. That is all. We basically agreed except that their pirate corps could not come here. But we considered some modifications.
So despite this they appear in FIX. Why? FIX isn't anywhere near the road to Fountain. So why are they there? Perhaps because its 0.0 space and they can kill with impunity. The point is they had no reason to be there in the first place even using their first justification for travelling in CFS space.
Earlier I used this analogy to describe what happend. A smart-aleck kid walks to school every day and on the way teases this dog on a leash. He stands just out of range and constanly teases him. The owner catches him and calls his dad. They talk and the dad makes the kid promise not to do it again. But sure enough a couple of days later theres the kid back again teasing the dog. One day the kid gets a little to close and the dog actually bites him. Who's fault is it? The dog? Or the kid that kept taunting him and coming back?
CFS wants peace. All we ask is CA keep the pirate corps out of here. If they truly renounce piracy the above conditions aren't hard to meet at all. We welcome all peaceful honest travellers to our space and we welcome all reformed people. But there has to be a policy in place to prove reformation. When the CFS Senate finishes it and it's published all of those who came out of the darkness are encouraged to follow the procedure and rejoin the light.
Reading the chat logs all I see is a leader (Sarkos) not really having control over his alliance. I guess thats what it boils down to. I'm not going to rail against him, call him a 16 year old kid or say hes a bad leader. Fact of the matter is with pirates in his alliance control is a myth. Just read the logs its clear time and time again they came here when they knew they shouldn't.
How many more days and "accidents" should we have waited? Anyone?
Calladen Nimitz
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Calladen Nimitz
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Posted - 2003.10.17 16:57:00 -
[12]
"I like the CFS constitution, I really do, but I donÆt like the consuming arrogance that is oftimes coupled with parochial distain by those to laud it high, unblemished, and singular in all of eve.
I stood before the ôfreeö CFS once and asked for aid against pirates and murderers at the height of the Venal war.
I was told that against the ideals of the CFS the NVA were ôpiratesö ourselves; and as such the proud corporations of the CFS were unlikely to intervene.
And our crime that we be accused of piracy by the CFS?
That we had published an intention to levy mining tariffs on VenalÆs mineral wealth in an attempt to prevent wholesale industrial strip-mining from extra-regional Megacorps.
For this intention some in the CFS named us ôpiratesö. "
Jade I'd like to clear up a few misconceptions you have. First, you weren't called a "pirate" that I'm aware of. The concern of the CFS Senate was that NVA had recently been a pirate alliance allied with the very pirate corps it was then fighting. We wanted to see some evidence that NVA has truly turned a corner and would live by the charter they wrote. As I've seen so far you have and in the future formal diplomatic relations are a real possibility. You understand like CA here we needed to see "proof" of non-piracy before we could consider an alliance (which is what you were asking - military support not just an NAP).
Likewise while we patrol Khanid and do not tolerate piracy we have no intention of becoming an intergalactic police force fighting pirates whereever they may be. At the time you asked for an alliance our decision to not ally with NVA had nothing to do with who or what you were fighting and everything to do with clarifying your position.
Regarding your desire to use Tariffs for mining again we didn't call that a "pirate" activity. We expressed concern you would close of the region and charge tolls as this was totally against the CFS way of doing things. Again we respect the right of the NVA to decide for themselves how their region will be goverened. But you have to understand in retrospect we will not ally with alliances who have totally divergent ideologies. Some differences are acceptable and some are not. Until each individual circumstance is looked at we can't say one way or another. Clearly though you weren't called a pirate for discussing tariffs.
You repeated the claims of "arrogance" a few times. Rest assured CFS is not arrogant in the least. We are proud. Proud of what we've accomplished in creating a place where all honest people can come and operate in 0.0 space in peace without burden.
Being proud is NOT arrogance. For example - You should be very proud of what NVA has accomplished. You've secured Venal and ended a bloddy civil war while you developed a charter and have corps working together. You should be proud and I wouldn't presume to accuse you of arrogance. Arrogance would be a complete distain of those around us. We are not like that. We even hold the olive branch of peace out for the honest CA corps and desire to keep our military home for defense not lashing out in other regions. We don't think we're better then anyone else. We're proud of CFS. There is a difference.
I hope that clears up our position. If you have any questions please ask. While I don't speak for Teister officially - we are a democracy and any CFS member has the right to speak up.
Best Wishes,
Calladen Nimitz
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Calladen Nimitz
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Posted - 2003.10.17 23:00:00 -
[13]
Jade,
You make some good points. I will say in the defense that CFS public channel is a mess. Honestly when I log on and see 160 people in there I know probably not even half of them are actually in the CFS.
In the CFS Senate channel I do hope you were treated with respect. If you were called a pirate there send me an evemail and let me know who sent it. I hope you don't assume concerns about the former pirate allies of VA were in a way saying you WERE pirates. That was never the intention here. I never said NVA was a pirate alliance in a previous life (if I did I misspoke). What was a concern is the corporate members of NVA had previously been in VA which was an alliance with pirates. Certainly we know most of the VA companies even then were not pirates. Like the CA situation most of the old VA and now the NVA companies have unlimited access to CFS protected space.
It is our sincere hope that peace will break out here. War serves no end and in this case could've been avoided. When everything is said and done it ends up being simple in most eyes. We were invaded for "thinking about" securing our area from CA. Considering CA already does this to their area (Curse) I find it debatable that this alone is a reason to "declare war". They were never KOS to CFS in non-CFS space. It wasn't like we would hunt them anywhere.
Given that no other corporation or alliance has had all these problems with our so-called "trigger happy" gate guards I find it very interesting that we've been blamed. As a huge percentage of the Eve population comes and goes without problem in our space (probably over 95%) perhaps its the fault of the other small percentage that these accidents have happend? Why hasn't anyone else been "victimized" by CFS as CA claims if we're so "trigger happy"?
I myself do not like war but I will fight to protect my home. I left my last company because of an ethical issue. Likewise the Eve community gave me a 'second chance' (as did you). Rest assured I value that second chance and I would not stay in an alliance that purposely encourages war. If I heard stories of people in CFS being "silenced" for complaining about Teister I would be the first to stand up, admit it and leave. My standards and ethics require that of me.
While mistakes have happend on both sides here and we were the ones who were invaded I still feel peace has a chance. I will be making a proposition in our Senate this evening for discussion. Hopefully my fellow Senators will vote for it and it will be ratified and delivered to the CA represenative. I hope it will be a starting point to peace. We shall see.
Thank you,
Calladen Nimitz
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